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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:40 pm 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
It's a fascinating narrative, Veidt being killed for doing something that is, in the end, a "good deed" simply because he did it in such a garish and cosmetically horrific way.

But it's not Watchmen.


floydtheater07 wrote:
Then, there is the deconstruction element. Veidt may or may not be a villain; that's up for the audience members to decide. But, in general, he fills the stereotypical villain role. He's the one who commits the atrocity at the end. And he needs to get away with it. He can't die. That ruins the ending.


I'm with EPR and Uncle Floyd. Watchmen isn't just a set plot and themes, it's equally supposed to be a deconstruction that's occurring throughout the story. Killing Veidt wouldn't follow the antitheses of the important "villain is always brought to justice or punished" rule (besides significantly changing the ending). And if the film is self-proclaimed to be a deconstruction of superhero movies, then killing Veidt would be doing exactly what is done in almost every other superhero movie with the villain being brought to justice or kicking the bucket.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:31 pm 
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I never said Veidt's death would not be a travesty. I said it wouldn't concretely affect the themes of moral ambiguity in the film. I'm not asking to have Veidt die. I'm not defending it beyond the fact that it would present another layer of ambiguity to the morality of Dan's actions and the whole situation. I don't feel this layer is neccessary in the context of the characters of WATCHMEN, just possible. I feel that Veidt should survive, simply so "the villain" is not punished, to keep that element of deconstruction intact. I do think what's there is sufficient exploration of the deconstruction of heroes and their actions, and I agree that killing someone isn't exactly shown to be within Dan's character. As I've said, I'd much rather see Veidt survive, and keep the faithful ending intact, simply for the sake of being faithful.

Anyone, even if Veidt's death was investigated, is there any guarantee what would be found would implicate him in the plot? Sure, it's possible, but do we know for sure? No.

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It throws it out of balance, really, because, again, you know have two things going against the utopia versus the one sustaining it.


I'm talking about a balance in ideology itself, whether or not what Veidt did was right, not the actions of those involved. You've got them agreeing to his plot, but killing him. That's a pretty ambiguos "was he right or wrong" scenario right there. Their inaction would seem to indicate they feel he was right. But if they agree with his plan, yet punish him...that's a lot more balanced in terms of the ambiguity of the ideology there.

We can wax poetic all day about what would possibly happen if Rorschach's journal was found, and speculate about whether or not he'd be believed, as well as speculate about the results or occurrence of an investigation, but we can't prove any of that. Rorschach was wanted, and believed crazy. The News Frontiersman had a following, extreme or not. Anything could happen, in that context. That's the beauty of WATCHMEN. We cannot definitively say what would happen. All we know is that the possibility exists for the Doomsday Clock to be reset. The whole point of the storytelling style of WATCHMEN, is that, depending on your point of view, the definition and meaning of what happens in it changes from person to person. The ending is not "known" any more than any characters actions being "right and wrong" at any point in the novel is known.

"Existence is random and meaningless, has no pattern, save for what we imagine after staring at it for too long" and all that.

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Not really, because there would be a feeling of them having defeated an evil man and his evil plot, and then just living with the positive aspects of his actions. They'd get their cake and eat it, too. You get the bad guy being punished and world peace. Release the doves! But that's not what Watchmen should feel like.


Unless the audience believes that all ambiguity goes out of Veidt's plan if he dies (which is simply not the case), then yes, you could keep that elements intact, even if Dan decided Veidt deserved to be punished.

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I'm just saying that appearing in the script and being filmed is one thing, actually showing up onscreen after the editing is another. I have a feeling a LOT of the stuff we're expecting to see will be cut for time.


I highly doubt it, and here's why. The Happy Harry sequence we've seen is fairly integral to the plot. It's when Dan and Rorschach find out more about Pyramid's ties to everything (before, Rorschach just knows Moloch worked for Pyramid), and its where Dan finds out about Hollis. And I doubt they will cut the only sequence where Rorschach interacts with the newsvendor? Why? Because aside from the funeral, this would be the only sequence Walter shows up in as the street crazy before Rorschach is revealed as the signwielder. The scene at the beginning is not in the movie, so that "buying the paper" sequence would be pretty important if the reveal is to have any impact.

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P.S. The little jokes about "maybe Dan did kill Veidt, we just didn't see it" can't be right. All of the Millenium signs in the last few panels prove that Veidt is alive, well, and working.


Or maybe just his corporation is. Corporations and ad campaigns don't stop just because the CEO dies. I don't think he did die, mind you, it's just a humorous observation.

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Veidt stipulates that the war is over resources. Why, then, doesn't he just create the clean cheap energy and reveal it to the world, thus allowing conflicts to be settled without having to blow up every major city on the planet? Does the script elaborate on the source of the conflict? Because if only resources are involved his entire plan seems kind of pointless.


Veidt says the war is over resources. But I think Veidt knows that the war is over ideals and resources, not just resources. Veidt uses the resources angle as a cover for what he's doing.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Anybody who thinks the Cold War was about natural resources really should not be citing it, because they obviously don't understand it. The people who read Watchmen in 1987 or in the following years actually lived the Cold War, and their frame of reference for it went beyond simply what's in Watchmen. Moore did not need to explain or put into context Cold War politics, because most people were keenly aware of it on their own. 20 years later, however, that same context and preexisting understanding is not there. You need to have that, or at least be aware of it, if you really want to experience the full impact that something like Dr. Manhattan would have on the world.

And, Guard, we both agree that Dan killing Veidt would add a very interesting layer onto the ending, and we apparently both agree that we don't want to see it in the film.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:59 pm 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
Anybody who thinks the Cold War was about natural resources really should not be citing it, because they obviously don't understand it. The people who read Watchmen in 1987 or in the following years actually lived the Cold War, and their frame of reference for it went beyond simply what's in Watchmen. Moore did not need to explain or put into context Cold War politics, because most people were keenly aware of it on their own. 20 years later, however, that same context and preexisting understanding is not there. You need to have that, or at least be aware of it, if you really want to experience the full impact that something like Dr. Manhattan would have on the world.

You're absolutely right. Another reason why the movie should make clear that Veidt's statement about resources doesn't account for the whole picture, because I'm sure most of the audiences in March will be comprised of younger viewers (such as myself) who don't have a real knowledge of the Cold War. I'm guessing the interview Blake watches in the opening sequence and the main titles will do a great deal of the work in filling the audience in.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:07 pm 
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I've heard from The Guard that we see Blake watching an episode of The McLaughlin Group, with a fake Jon McLaughlin and Pat Buchanan talking about the state of the world and what-not. People who've been shown the opening sequence at those press screenings say it's a speech by Pres. Nixon. I'd probably prefer McLaughlin, but, whatever they go with, I'm sure it'll do a good job giving the viewer an accurate sense of Watchmen world politics. That and the title sequence.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Quote:
I've heard from The Guard that we see Blake watching an episode of The McLaughlin Group, with a fake Jon McLaughlin and Pat Buchanan talking about the state of the world and what-not. People who've been shown the opening sequence at those press screenings say it's a speech by Pres. Nixon. I'd probably prefer McLaughlin, but, whatever they go with, I'm sure it'll do a good job giving the viewer an accurate sense of Watchmen world politics. That and the title sequence.


Some of the reviews mention both the McLaughlin Group and a clip of Nixon speaking on America's foreign policy. Both are featured in the script.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:52 pm 
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Hey Guard... how exactly do they handle the dream sequence in the script? Do they still rip the skin off of each other?

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:15 pm 
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Laurie is already there, taking the place of the Twilight Lady. He goes to her as Dan, and she rips the skin off of him.


Last edited by The Guard on Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:56 pm 
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BlackDoomShadow wrote:
"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mr. Dreiberg. I expect you to die! HahahaOHSHIT CRAAASH"
"Lol"



Someone needs to draw this. Preferably in MSPaint.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:46 pm 
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4doubleDD123-whatever wrote

Just like the real world elite. They do whatever they want, they control everything, justice never gets to them and god doesn't give a fuck.

Heh.
There's a god?

It's Fox Mulder on crack!

Kazillions of New Yorkers killed by a faggy german perfume manufacturer, and you think none of 'em will react?


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:54 pm 
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Quote:
faggy german perfume manufacturer


Best take on Veidt ever? I think so.

Anyways, that guy has proven long ago that he doesn't get the book, as was made clear by his brilliant "Laurie's a whore" argument that seemed to be based entirely off his high school romance experiences. He surmised that any woman who gets benefits that stem from her relationship with a man is a whore. Which applies to, um, every woman married to a member of the armed forces. But, if it was a man married to a female service member, I'm sure he'd have a different opinion . . .

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:25 pm 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
Quote:
faggy german perfume manufacturer


Best take on Veidt ever? I think so.

Anyways, that guy has proven long ago that he doesn't get the book, as was made clear by his brilliant "Laurie's a whore" argument that seemed to be based entirely off his high school romance experiences. He surmised that any woman who gets benefits that stem from her relationship with a man is a whore. Which applies to, um, every woman married to a member of the armed forces. But, if it was a man married to a female service member, I'm sure he'd have a different opinion . . .


I never said that. You don't understand my post nor the book. In fact, you proved it by comparing it to Star Wars, a book that's unrealistic regarding society and human relationships. All you have to do is read Alan Moore's quotes regarding Veidt being the good guy in the story to understand how wrong your analysis in which Rorschach's journal gives the world A NEW HOPE, which makes Seymour train to become the next vigilante knight and kill Veidt.

For the record, I said she was slut because she ended a relationship that lasted many years and was already sleeping with a guy a few hours later. I said she was using Dan in order to fill the void of what she's used to having: sex, a house, a person who cares for her, etc. I didn't say she was using Jon for the government benefits, I said the same thing her mother said, that she knew she was put there to keep him happy and relaxed and she accepted it.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:29 pm 
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she is emotionally broken not a slut


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:35 pm 
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Project862006 wrote:
she is emotionally broken not a slut


You could say that about every slut. They all have a reason behind their actions. It doesn't justify them. Don't tell me they didn't have a choice.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:36 pm 
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I said you were like a Star Wars fan who rooted for the bad guys. Point is, you were fatally missing the point. Nothing about how the two things themselves were alike. Read slower, and you might not have to be corrected all time.

You think that Watchmen is supposed to say something definitive. You think the book wants you to feel one way or the other about "the elites", and that the "bad guys" always win. The whole point of Watchmen is tearing down the idea of who's the bad guy, who's the good guy, what is a hero, what is a villain. Your whole point in that thread you started (that got locked), is that Watchmen has the "bad guys" win, and that there's nothing anybody can do about it. But your missing the point if you cast Veidt as the villain. Moore does not want you to think there's nothing anybody can do to change the world; if that were true, why did he go to the trouble of setting up the journal ending? You're wrong because:

A. You think Veidt is a villain, and that the book wants you to think villains always get their way in the real world. Veidt and his actions are not meant to be definitively bad. They're supposed to be neutral blanks slants onto which you transpose your opinions. They themselves could be viewed either way. It's fine if you think Veidt and his actions were bad, but don't confuse your opinions with the book's message.

B. You think Watchmen says there's nothing anybody can do to stop "villains", which ignores the most important page in the book: the last page.

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Last edited by EmPiiRe x on Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:47 pm 
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4d669 wrote:
Project862006 wrote:
she is emotionally broken not a slut


You could say that about every slut. They all have a reason behind their actions. It doesn't justify them. Don't tell me they didn't have a choice.

Yeah, quoting a maladjusted misogynist makes your argument against Laurie sound rational and fair.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:02 am 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
I said you were like a Star Wars fan who rooted for the bad guys. Point is, you were fatally missing the point. Nothing about how the two things themselves were alike. Read slower, and you might not have to be corrected all time.

You think that Watchmen is supposed to say something definitive. You think the book wants you to feel one way or the other about "the elites", and that the "bad guys" always win. The whole point of Watchmen is tearing down the idea of who's the bad guy, who's the good guy, what is a hero, what is a villain. Your whole point in that thread you started (that got locked), is that Watchmen has the "bad guys" win, and that there's nothing anybody can do about it. But your missing the point if you cast Veidt as the villain. Moore does not want you to think there's nothing anybody can do to change the world; if that were true, why did he go to the trouble of setting up the journal ending? You're wrong because:

A. You think Veidt is a villain, and that the book wants you to think villains always get their way in the real world. Veidt and his actions are not meant to be definitively bad. They're supposed to be neutral blanks slants onto which you transpose your opinions. They themselves could be viewed either way. It's fine if you think Veidt and his actions were bad, but don't confuse your opinions with the book's message.

B. You think Watchmen says there's nothing anybody can do to stop "villains", which ignores the most important page in the book: the last page.


I've never said 'bad guys'. I've never said Veidt was the villain. There are no bad guys in the book or in real life. That's why Rorschach dies, because the world is not black and white.

The ending is there to give people a tiny glimmer of hope, just like life does every now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:12 am 
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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:20 am 
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So your point is that there's nothing one man can do to change or affect the world.

But Veidt himself proves otherwise. He was not "one of the elites". He made himself part of the establishment only so that he could tear it down from the inside. You said the point of Watchmen is to say "the world is shitty, and will always be shitty, and the elites will always get their way." But Veidt proves that one man can change the world, and for the better.

The book does cast judgment on Rorschach's pessimism with the character of Dr. Malcolm Long. He adopts Rorschach's nihilism, but, by the end, just before the "attacks", he sees that one man really can do something that changes other people's lives for the better. He sees that one man really can change the world, no matter how minuscule or grand his affect.

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Last edited by EmPiiRe x on Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:22 am 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
So your point is that there's nothing one man can do to change or affect the world.

But Veidt himself proves otherwise. He was not "one of the elites". He made himself part of the establishment only so that he could tear it down from the inside. You said the point of Watchmen is to say "the world is shitty, and will always be shitty, and the elites will always get their way." But Veidt proves that one man can change the world, and for the better.


Yeah, you're right. I'm not being sarcastic.

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