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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:15 pm 
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The Guard wrote:
Jon and Laurie materialize in New York. Dr. Manhattan figures out it was Adrian who did this. He and Laurie teleport to Karnak. The rest plays out as you'd expect, except that Dan, realizing Rorschach's error, tries to stop his friend, and sees him blown apart, as we do, by Dr. Manhattan. Dan can't take what's happened when Manhattan leaves, snaps, attacks Adrian, the fight ensues, Owl Rang, etc. Adrian dies.


The Guard, I have a question. So from the trailers we assume that the part where Dan sees Rorschach die is still in the movie, right? So where do Dan and Laurie have their little cathartic sex romp (if at all)? The way the original scene is set up seems to make it impossible for Dan to see Rorschach die, since he and Laurie were making the two-backed beast right before/during Rorschach's death.

If the scene is in the movie, it seems most likely that that they moved it to after Rorschach died, to let Dan cope with his new grief and what not, right? They couldn't have had it before Rorschach died...unless Dan has the hitherto undiscovered superpower of not lasting very long in bed.

I guess if the scene's cut out entirely from the movie then my question is moot.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Dan does see Rorschach die. There's no "Nostalgia" scene in the script. However, several people who saw that "screening" referenced it, so it must be there. I suspect he sees Rorschach die, and that only fuels his desire to celebrate life with Laurie.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:07 pm 
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The Guard wrote:
I suspect he sees Rorschach die, and that only fuels his desire to celebrate life with Laurie.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:27 pm 
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The Guard wrote:
Dan does see Rorschach die. There's no "Nostalgia" scene in the script. However, several people who saw that "screening" referenced it, so it must be there. I suspect he sees Rorschach die, and that only fuels his desire to celebrate life with Laurie.


Makes me wonder how much of the GN Snyder managed to sneak back into the movie during filming. The production of this movie is so weird; I've never seen a final script that is still largely unreliable in telling you what's 100% in the movie and what's not.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:24 am 
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Ok, I'm finally gonna stick my neck out and say it.

I bet you this whole shebang is a red herring.

The squid is in.

What better way to get the fans on your side (a regular fanfare!) upon release than have everyone's expections lowered with the 'make do with this Hollywood version' thing. Bury the re-write and re-alignment with the novel until the premiere.

Easy enough to whack some blue explosions together in cgi and cut 'em into the test screener.

That whole interview, the 'Squid is out' thing, reeks of a practical joke/smokescreen.

There. I said it. I feel soooo much better now.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:13 am 
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The theory's been tossed around before. If Snyder in fact did do this, I would tip many a proverbial hat towards him and his genius. I could see him validating his reasons too, "Oh yeah, I just wanted to, you know, sort of recreate the feeling first-time readers had when reading Watchmen." It'd be genius, too. Tell fans there is no squid so their hopes get let down and then in the theater BAM! SQUID ENDING. Fans of the GN would go crazy, I'm sure. :lol:

But...we'll see. A lot of the reasons people listed why the squid would be do make sense, such as budget concerns. I still am going to go into the theater expecting no squid and if there is one...well, I'll just be pleasantly surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:05 pm 
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JiangWei23 wrote:
The theory's been tossed around before. If Snyder in fact did do this, I would tip many a proverbial hat towards him and his genius. I could see him validating his reasons too, "Oh yeah, I just wanted to, you know, sort of recreate the feeling first-time readers had when reading Watchmen." It'd be genius, too. Tell fans there is no squid so their hopes get let down and then in the theater BAM! SQUID ENDING. Fans of the GN would go crazy, I'm sure. :lol:

But...we'll see. A lot of the reasons people listed why the squid would be do make sense, such as budget concerns. I still am going to go into the theater expecting no squid and if there is one...well, I'll just be pleasantly surprised.

Even though we can't rely on this hope it would be fucking outstanding and genius.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:39 pm 
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All it takes is one episode of Entourage, just one. After you are reminded how Hollywood really operates behind the scenes you remember how impossible it would be to have the epic squid attack, 'bodies beyond your wildest imaginings' ending that the movie deserves.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:47 pm 
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And all it takes is one episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia to get me to never go to that city for the rest of my life . . .

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:28 am 
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and one episode of the shield to never be a cop lol


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:32 am 
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And one episode of Futurama to not freeze yourself and travel to the future.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:33 am 
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EmPiiRe x wrote:
And all it takes is one episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia to get me to never go to that city for the rest of my life . . .
Project862006 wrote:
and one episode of the shield to never be a cop lol
Smutty wrote:
And one episode of Futurama to not freeze yourself and travel to the future.

So what's your point, gents?

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:44 am 
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His point was that a comedy on HBO is all the proof one needs to understand how Hollywood rapes good stories and why we're never going to get a good Watchmen movie.

Thus, the sarcasm ensued . . .

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:24 am 
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i pray for the day where we get the see "The Walking Dead" HBO series that is truly faithful to the comic. That would be fucking great.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:30 am 
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(sorry in advance)

...and two years working at Weta to realise that all your cynicism may look very weak if you are proved wrong.

Here's a question to back up my growing belief in the Squid's inclusion in the movie.
Do you think it's likely any studio would green-light all the time and money it will be taking to make an animated short of 'Black Freighter' if there's no other reason for it to be there than 'it's cool'?
Unlikely. Because if it isn't doing it's job as it does in the GN, it will serve no purpose cut into the extended version other than to slow everything down considerably.
Sure it reflects major themes, carries a certain dreadfully ominous mood up through the main story etc. I know it all. But as storyline, there's only one reason for it's existence.

I reckon we have been smokescreened, red-herring'd.
I have posted arguments in defence of a Squid-less movie. Let's blame a character, let's blame Jon, already so tragic. Let's deny him comfort when he decides to come home with Laurie.

But honestly, i think it's a ruse. Those weak 1/2 finished 'Jonergy' special effects shots... not convinced.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:58 am 
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I've had the same thought, Mr. Pain. But I can't talk myself into it.

We shall see.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:38 am 
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4d669 wrote:
I don't buy that ambiguous ending crap. I'm talking about the book. Sure, you are left to think what will happen next, will he publish it or not... blah blah blah, it's all just a spark of hope for those to weak to see the truth. Even if they published Rorschach's journal, NOTHING would change. People publish groundbreaking shit all the time and what happens to them? They become conspiracy theorists, crazy people, hippies, someone you can't listen to, someone who has been 'debunked' by the mainstream media. This is what will happen if it gets published. The paper will be considered an extreme left (or right) propaganda machine. Veidt will get the Nova Express to run a story 'debunking' him and everyone will move along. Maybe it will create a tiny movement of 'crazy people' who nobody listens to.

But seriously, think about it, Rorschach is a psychopath, the media made his landlady say he approached him sexually, he is a known killer, known vigilante. All Viedt had to do was make Nova run a story with Malcolm Long's notes from the sessions and he loses his credibility in a second. Nobody cares about all the evidence, the pictures, the hard facts, nothing. There is no ambiguous ending. Veidt won and nobody can stop him, except Dr Manhattan who doesn't give a fuck.

Just like the real world elite. They do whatever they want, they control everything, justice never gets to them and god doesn't give a fuck.


I think the stronger implication is w/r/t/ Veidt's state of mind/soul in the end of the GN. The possibility of Rorschach's journal being discovered or not is just another layer of awesome left there by Moore, but in reality the scribblings of a notorious loony wouldn't probably mean much. What matters more, I think, is the last panel of Veidt, his back turned to the orrery, an expression of doubt for the first time creeping in his face... I love it. Manhattan's last line was the real point: "For all we know you just bought some time. Asshole."


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:02 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
(sorry in advance)

...and two years working at Weta to realise that all your cynicism may look very weak if you are proved wrong.

Here's a question to back up my growing belief in the Squid's inclusion in the movie.
Do you think it's likely any studio would green-light all the time and money it will be taking to make an animated short of 'Black Freighter' if there's no other reason for it to be there than 'it's cool'?
Unlikely. Because if it isn't doing it's job as it does in the GN, it will serve no purpose cut into the extended version other than to slow everything down considerably.
Sure it reflects major themes, carries a certain dreadfully ominous mood up through the main story etc. I know it all. But as storyline, there's only one reason for it's existence.

I reckon we have been smokescreened, red-herring'd.
I have posted arguments in defence of a Squid-less movie. Let's blame a character, let's blame Jon, already so tragic. Let's deny him comfort when he decides to come home with Laurie.

But honestly, i think it's a ruse. Those weak 1/2 finished 'Jonergy' special effects shots... not convinced.


Well I've already said the production blogs are starting to come off as a smoke screen, but for different reasons. I take your point about the Freighter though. Can't see it being of any interest to a non-fan and to seemingly spend all that money just for the fans seems very out of character. But then even if the squid is in, would non fans get the connection. I don't know.

I'd love to think Snyder is pulling a switcheroo, but I just can't see it happening. If it does, do you think he'll be able to last until the release or will the reveal come in the final trailer in January?

And finally, who would care if he did reveal the switcheroo? Sure, fans would go crazy, but non fans could be a bit nonplussed. And then we're back to spending money on just pretending you were removing the squid. Just seems pointless.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:14 am 
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If the squid is out even though we'll get the Black Freighter and all of the detail and care that's gone into it, then this film's place in history may be secured just by virtue of its example of how a movie can superficially meet or exceed all expectations and still be completely unhinged by one story miscalculation. People on sites like this in the future can debate whether McG was wise to leave the bird statue out of his remake of 'The Maltese Falcon' by viewing it in terms of The Watchmen Effect.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:00 pm 
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Hmm...Interesting points made. I can agree with the Black Freighter reasoning but the cynic inside me still thinks they put the effort into it to appease the fans and really, for shits and giggles. Oh and cause it does look cool.

If Snyder is in fact pulling a trick on us I will bow to him but I just can't let my hopes rise then be killed once March 6th comes.

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