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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:47 pm 
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Raw Shock wrote:
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That's when he breaks the glass in the guys hand.


I see no glass.
I do, however, see what looks to be a man making an expression of pain after having his finger broken

We've been over this, Raw Shock. The glass will probably be added in via CGI for the actor's safety.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:51 pm 
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The glass is visible.

Notice a dark horizontal line across the chest of the guy right between the guys hand.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:06 pm 
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like mike_tyson said, the glass is clearly visible.

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We've been over this, Raw Shock. The glass will probably be added in via CGI for the actor's safety.

I though that for decades they use "sugar" glass in scenes with glass.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Why spend $10 on a sugar glass when they can spend $1,000 on a CG one? (sarcasm)


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:20 pm 
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Can I assume Long's journal entries are gone?.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:23 pm 
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t3cii wrote:
Can I assume Long's journal entries are gone?.


You can probably assume most things associated with Long are out. Apparently, he's a one-scene character who gives up on Kovacs quickly.

Fine by me. If you have to cut something for time constraints, it might as well be that.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:34 pm 
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I hope this helped quell some fears. I know Vyn will be disappointed about a lot of it, but...I still think it will be a fantastic film, probably the best thing most of us have ever seen.

I suspect not having Rorschach jump out of the fridge was a studio issue, and let's face it, the second time Rorschach visits Moloch, he does slam him into the fridge rather than leaping out of it. This allow allows him to use the "Rorschach note", which they wouldn't be able to do if he leapt out of the fridge. They combined the two scenes, and that's what they ended up with.

I suspect not burning down the house is a budget issue more than anything. Since part of the big long dialogue about God not being there, hellbent, oblivion, etc, isn't there, they wouldn't need it to be burned down. I do miss that passage, it's one of my favorites. Here's hoping Snyder finds a way to include it.

Veidt wants the world to think Dr. Manhattan is behind all this.

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Actually, it's piss-poor, considering the fact that superhero comics aren't around in the Watchmen universe. Pirate comics are what everyone reads, remember?


Assumption. Hollis Mason references Superman. There's nothing to suggest superhero comics didn't and never existed, just that they aren't incredibly popular anymore, because real heroes existed, and are now hated as a concept.

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Looks good. But would have liked to have seen Rorscach breaking fingers in happy harrys like he did in the GN.

He breaks the man who hired Roy Chess's fingers at the end. They combine the beginning and end bar scenes, when Rorschach and Nite Owl are pressing the underworld. The shots you've seen are from that.
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The Cold War was about resources. Who knew.

In the movie's WATCHMEN universe, it's about the resources in the middle East. That's why the Russians are in Afghanistan.
Keep in mind, I don't know what Snyder has or hasn't altered. His attention to detail has been amazing.
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We should see the origin of Rorschach's face. We need an explanation as to why it moves like it does, if nothing else. And I'm not entirely pleased with the way he dispatches Gerald Grice. It seems too bland, too slasher. We should have the shock of the dead dogs being thrown through the window, followed by Rorschach's silent torture of his victim.

The dead dogs do come through the window. Understand, when I don't elaborate on a scene, it's because it plays out almost exactly as it does in the novel.

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One other line I'd like to know if its in is "Why are so few of us left active, happy and without personality disorders?" I don't think this line was mentioned in the summary.

Yes, that is in the script.
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Same with "My face! Give it back!"

That's also in the script. So is the fact that "Christ! He stinks!"
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Hey, Guard, could you elaborate more on the attempted sex scene between Dan and Laurie in front of Veidt on the TV? That's such a great moment in the novel... I just want to make sure it's in tact.

Not unless Snyder has changed it. They come out of the basement, and they have dinner together, and things are awkward, and Laurie and Dan have a few words, and then she basically tries to get him to loosen up. None of the "You look great without glasses" stuff. I should add...Orci and Kurtzman did not use most of the obvious lines. There will be a lot of acting conveying ideas in this movie.

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Can I assume Long's journal entries are gone?


They're not in the script. Nor is his home life. Long is played as a man who sincerely believes he can help Rorschach, who believes there is a way things are. Rorschach's tale shakes his beliefs to the core, and then Rorschach adds insult to injury by kidnapping Long during the riot. He makes Long give him back his face, and puts it on, turns, and says "Your turn, Doctor. What do you see?" about his face. It's actually not a bad line/moment.

This movie's attention to detail is staggering. I love that the actors felt the need to "improvise". This is shaping up to be something special. Always was. Always will be...


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Thanks for elaborating on the dead dogs situation. And thanks for the report in general.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:40 pm 
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So Russia invades Afghanistan for fuel, and not because they see an advantage to exploit when Dr Manhattan leaves earth?
Also, is it fairly obvious to a hypothetical person watching the news that Veidt is behind the event at the end? It seems that he likes people to be aware that he's working with that sort of energy.
Thanks for the script review, Guard.

BTW, Veidt said in the novel that the American public never went in for superheroes in a big way. Interpret that how you will, if it helps.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:44 pm 
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Quote:
The comic's clever use of the medium can't be duplicated onscreen, but its great characterization could be. Unfortunately, Snyder can't get convincing, human performances from actors, let alone the great performances that could really make this a great movie.

He was also very concerned with saving money on the cast and not getting anyone too expensive, and while directors often are, this seems a shame.


He cast two very, very talented actors in Patrick Wilson and JEH. Matthew Goode is nothing to sneeze at, and neither is Billy Crudup. I fail to see why you'd assume he will not get good performances from his actors.

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Also, I'm doubtful that they'll keep enough of the lines that don't just move the plot forward, although we'll see.


Such as...

Quote:
I also noticed that he once again added plot for the female character, which wouldn't be bad, except it's a lame "girl power" plot, when the book makes it clear that maybe being a vigilante isn't such a good idea.


The book also makes it clear that it bothers Laurie that she's only kept around to make Jon happy, and that, in some ways, she's as much a "prositute" as her mother was. It's an arc about "breaking free", and if you want to call that "girl power", it's on you, but it works, and there are elements of it in the novel.

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Dan and Laurie continuing adventuring at the end seems more like sticking their heads in the sand and trying to continue with a childish fantasy (that also happens to turn them on) than anything heroic.


Only Dan continues adventuring.

By the way. Page 30 of A STRONGER, LOVING WORLD...

DAN: "Nite Owl and Silk Spectre? Sounds neat"

LAURIE: "Silk Spectre's too girly, y'know? Plus, I want a better costume, that protects me. Maybe something leather, with a mask over my face. Also, maybe I oughtta carry a gun".


I'd say there's a precedent in the novel for them to continue adventuring on some level.

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Veidt makes the point that this kind of nonsense is obsolete. But it looks like a point of movie Laurie's character will be, in part, about how she learns how cool it is to kick a bunch of ass and be a superhero! Empowering! Who cares if it goes against the original message?


No, that is not the message at all. Laurie enjoys what she does with Dan, and the book makes this very clear. Being a hero empowers them at the end of the novel, even if it does lead them into some crazy moral territory. I'm unsure why this element would bother you.

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[I'm most worried about Rorschach's character, especially from what we've found out lately...you could argue that he's the protagonist (and the "unreliable narrator") of the comic, but he seems to have been shunted aside in favor of a generic'ed up version of Dan the traditional hero who kills the evil villain and get the girl.


Oh heavens no. Rorschach's very much front and center, and very much what he is in the book, albeit a bit less wordy in the Grice scene.

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Meanwhile, Adrian becomes a British Bond bad guy, and the whole movie warps into yet another Hollywood superhero picture that probably won't be terrible, but won't be noteworthy in any way.


How is Adrian a British Bond bad guy? Is he not still doing something horrible, and taking the weight of that awful, neccessary crime, to save the world?

It's silly to think it won't be noteworthy, even if half it's best material is excised (which it's not), it's still noteworthy stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:47 pm 
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TelepathicCephalopod wrote:
Why spend $10 on a sugar glass when they can spend $1,000 on a CG one? (sarcasm)

Beg pardon. I'd forgotten that "sugar glass" technology existed.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:47 pm 
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You're welcome for the info. I don't consider it a script review, more just a really lazy point by point of what's in, what's out, and what's been altered and how.

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So Russia invades Afghanistan for fuel, and not because they see an advantage to exploit when Dr Manhattan leaves earth?


The script makes it seem as if they do so because Dr. Manhattan leaves. That Dr. Manhattan was the only element keeping them at bay, and keeping this escalation toward war from being a certainty. It's played as if it's always been about resources, and let's face it, in many ways, the conflicts in this world have been.

Quote:
Also, is it fairly obvious to a hypothetical person watching the news that Veidt is behind the event at the end? It seems that he likes people to be aware that he's working with that sort of energy.


Veidt never actually unveils what he and Dr. Manhattan are working on. He just says he was developing clean, cheap energy. He never even hints that it's Manhattan's energy signature that is being used.


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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:07 pm 
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The Guard wrote:
You're welcome for the info. I don't consider it a script review, more just a really lazy point by point of what's in, what's out, and what's been altered and how.

Quote:
So Russia invades Afghanistan for fuel, and not because they see an advantage to exploit when Dr Manhattan leaves earth?


The script makes it seem as if they do so because Dr. Manhattan leaves. That Dr. Manhattan was the only element keeping them at bay, and keeping this escalation toward war from being a certainty. It's played as if it's always been about resources, and let's face it, in many ways, the conflicts in this world have been.

Quote:
Also, is it fairly obvious to a hypothetical person watching the news that Veidt is behind the event at the end? It seems that he likes people to be aware that he's working with that sort of energy.


Veidt never actually unveils what he and Dr. Manhattan are working on. He just says he was developing clean, cheap energy. He never even hints that it's Manhattan's energy signature that is being used.


Hmmm...If Veidt never hinted that Manhatten's signature was on whatever Weapon was developed in this script...

...It just makes me wonder what in the livng hell Snyder cooked up then for an ending. The Jonergy ending seems to fall closest into place :?

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:10 pm 
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I don't like this reimagination of the Cold War...
It is not without significance that Dr Manhattan's presence brought the world closer to nuclear war - and I had hoped that they'd make it clear within the story since we know, in retrospect, it never happened. If you can help the audience understand that, they'd consider Veidt's actions a lot more seriously rather than write it off and say "well nuclear war never happened, so of course his actions weren't justified!" and can also consider the negative implications of Rorschach's journal being (possibly!) discovered...
And we're meant to believe that there's an easy way out of the Cold War? Just work out how to get free energy? At the very least you can say that the subplot is pointless. In reality, it's probably pretty terrible. Why would Veidt bother with his "evil genius" plot? Is it a contingency plan he has prepared in case it turns out free energy isn't possible, or does he know all along?

The former, like I said, terrible. The latter, pointless. Why bother with the subplot if it has no effect on the plot? All it would do is repeat the idea of Veidt wanting to save the world by any means necessary, but that's established well enough in the book with the Crimebusters meeting and probably even more if "the Watchmen" have a bigger role.

TG, I'm hoping you have answers I haven't thought of, because this is really bothering me now! :D

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:31 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
I don't like this reimagination of the Cold War...
It is not without significance that Dr Manhattan's presence brought the world closer to nuclear war - and I had hoped that they'd make it clear within the story since we know, in retrospect, it never happened. If you can help the audience understand that, they'd consider Veidt's actions a lot more seriously rather than write it off and say "well nuclear war never happened, so of course his actions weren't justified!" and can also consider the negative implications of Rorschach's journal being (possibly!) discovered...
And we're meant to believe that there's an easy way out of the Cold War? Just work out how to get free energy? At the very least you can say that the subplot is pointless. In reality, it's probably pretty terrible. Why would Veidt bother with his "evil genius" plot? Is it a contingency plan he has prepared in case it turns out free energy isn't possible, or does he know all along?

The former, like I said, terrible. The latter, pointless. Why bother with the subplot if it has no effect on the plot? All it would do is repeat the idea of Veidt wanting to save the world by any means necessary, but that's established well enough in the book with the Crimebusters meeting and probably even more if "the Watchmen" have a bigger role.

TG, I'm hoping you have answers I haven't thought of, because this is really bothering me now! :D


This is complete guess work but maybe Snyder is trying to find a political commentary/theme that is very much relevant to the current era? The fighting over energy (oil) is something that is pretty prominent in this day and age and I guess Snyder thinks he found a means to keep a common thread going.

Now if and why he wants to do this is beyond me. I don't really get it myself. Maybe it's a spillover from the Hayter and Greengrass concept, which I believe the film was to take place in the present time.

I'm just drawing straws at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Quote:
I don't like this reimagination of the Cold War...


The entire world has changed, per the novel. There is always going to be competition for resources. It's implied that Manhattan's presence has escalated tensions beyond what they were in the real Cold War.

Quote:
And we're meant to believe that there's an easy way out of the Cold War? Just work out how to get free energy?


I don't know that it would ever be easy. Providing energy to the rest of the world so that they don't have to go to war over resources that America has seized control of with Manhattan's assistance would certainly lesson some tensions, wouldn't you think?

Quote:
At the very least you can say that the subplot is pointless.


That's not really a subplot. That's Veidt's explanation for why he's developing this new energy. The nuclear war element is the subplot, and as we well know, that's hardly pointless.

Quote:
In reality, it's probably pretty terrible. Why would Veidt bother with his "evil genius" plot? Is it a contingency plan he has prepared in case it turns out free energy isn't possible, or does he know all along?


It's a cover. Even Dr. Manhattan doesn't know what Veidt intends to do. It's not a huge subplot, it's just Veidt's cover, and possibly his means of control in the world after he "saves" it.


Last edited by The Guard on Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:46 pm 
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It's fair to say that on some level all of the world's conflicts have been a scramble for resources, ie survival, but it oversimplifies the opposition of ideologies that America and the Soviet Union had. They were carving up the world into chess squares between them, and neither was in any apparent danger of extinction from anything beside the arms race.

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:30 am 
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Thanks for the info TG, this movie seems like its going to be awesome :)

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:45 am 
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How does the script treat Hooded Justice? Is he still the first superhero, and Hollis Mason's inspiration? Is he still always out when Nelly calls? Is he still the reason Adrian fought Blake to begin with?


Also, is the flashback where Dr. Manhattan talks with Hollis when he gets his statue in?

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 Post subject: Re: WATCHMEN TRANSFORMED
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:19 am 
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Just wanted to say: Thanks for the review. It made my day, and made me feel more happy for the movie. I have high hopes now.

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