WatchmenComicMovie.com Forum

Here's a whole bunch of words I posted on the Watchmen forum at IMDB which sums up my take on the Ultimate Cut:

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Well....where do I begin?

Don't get me wrong, I liked Watchmen when it was released in theaters. I even read the comic beforehand (liked it, natch) and still enjoyed it. I mean, you can only convey so much in a single film, right? And I think, considering certain changes by the creative team and the limitations imposed by...whoever is responsible for the running time, the theatrical cut was pretty good. I heard some very contrasting opinions on this super-long-ass version; some said it was the very best and some said it was the very worst, 'completely falling apart' as described by more than one person.

So then I saw it. Twice. Just to make sure.

I think I'll have to agree with those in the 'hater' camp. Ouch.

Alright, obviously the big problem with the Ultimate Cut is Tales of the Black Freighter being added to the movie. Great animated short, well acted, but it is very poorly edited into the film. Abysmally. Pathetically. The transition effects range from being either extremely poor and almost nonexistent to nonexistent entirely. This is incredibly jarring and completely ruins the flow of the movie, almost bringing it to a grinding halt. I really don't know what's worse, suddenly leaping into these animated sequences and having to adjust accordingly or leaping out of them and having to adjust back to the actual movie (which stylistically is completely different from Black Freighter). Plus, the viewer's attention to and knowledge of the plot is disrupted so often that the movie feels overlong, endless even.

Another failure of the Ultimate Cut is the the added live-action scenes segueing (and I use that term very loosely, see above) between the Black Freighter scenes and the movie proper, or 'the scenes with the Two Bernies'. Apparently this was supposed to provide a perspective of 'the-man-on-the-street', the ignorant bystanders who eventually get caught up in Veidt's scheme. The acting was perfectly fine. Yet both Bernies were given so little screen-time and were so barely developed that they amounted to nothing more than glorified extras with lines. When New York was destroyed while the two embraced, I didn't feel anything. No sense of scale of the loss of life or even a sense of loss, period. This is worsened by the previously mentioned pacing problems, which make you wish the movie would just hurry the hell up already (sorta like me, hah hah hah).

Last but not least is the thematic importance of the Black Freighter and the parallels it draws with Veidt's ultimate plan. Whatever ambiguity that was present in the theatrical version or the director's cut is completely lost in this version, at least in theory. Assuming now that the Black Freighter scenes were well integrated and actually seemed relevant to the overall plot, it essentially tells us that Veidt's plan is doomed to fail. He murdered over 15 million people, deceived many more and framed and murdered his former colleagues...all for nothing. So in a nutshell: Rorschach = Good, Veidt = Bad. Very, very, very, very, very, veeeeeeeery bad. Isn't that right, kids? Just look at how bad he is! Booooo!

At best, it's redundant. At worst, it is unbelievably hamfisted and condescending to the viewer, like they can't draw their own opinion. The comic was ambiguous; this 'Ultimate Cut' just spoon-feeds it to you in a very misguided way.

Aside from that, the new material brought along by the director's cut is pretty damn good and makes the movie flow better and the plot more understandable.

All except for one little thing...

'Mommy, that guy in the space rocket...is he Jesus?'
'No, honey.'

That's...that's just...that's just...inexcusable. From any standpoint. No explanation required. Just...My God...


So what do some of you guys think?


Peace, I'm out.
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Also, here's a quick rebuttal I made to clarify my 'Rorschach = Good, Veidt = Bad' statement:

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Oops. Sorry about the 'Rorschach = Good, Veidt = Bad' stuff I put in there. Just a bit of hyperbole on the effect that the Black Freighter footage has on (supposedly) the eventual outcome of Veidt's paln.

Believe me, Rorschach is no role model! God no. He's still royally messed up and deluded, like you said. It's just the very unsubtle implication (at least from what I can gather) that world peace will not last and all Veidt will have to show for it is his mass murder and deceit. That and the fact that Rorschach was the only one willing to expose the truth to everyone. Not absolute good versus absolute evil, but the contrast between him, Veidt and the rest of the characters coupled with the Black Freighter stuff just creates a not so subtle implication. For me, anyway. Or it would, if the Black Freighter sequences actually worked within the film. Just my opinion.

Just to clarify though: I already saw the Black Freighter short film before I watched the Ultimate Cut (great short film), so I already knew what to expect. Just didn't work in the movie, is all.

Still, the box set is one sweet package, though. I think we can all agree on that!
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Yikes. Long. But still everything I wanted to say. Cheers.

Wow. I don't think I could disagree with you more on almost every single one of your points.

Good review anyway. I mean, writing wise.

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."

I disagree on this point. It is ad verbum from the book and supports the 'rudderless world' of the overall story.

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Always remember, it's your right to have a SUPER day.
If you're not, call me ... I'll have one for you!

Just saw this. Old footage, but just recently posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFzgjbti-Rk

Snyder says once again that the DC is the movie.

The TC is "the movie" minus 24 minutes.
The UC is "the movie" plus 30 minutes.

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"Computer unnecessary."

how is it inexcusable? that part always made sense to me, and i preferred that it was in there.

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Yeah I don't get some peoples' complaints with that part.


*Puts hands over ears*

LALALALALALALALALALALALA

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."

My main complaint about the 'Jesus' line said by the child is that it simply doesn't work in the film. With the combination of the swelling music and the lingering close up of the child and her mother, it is just far, far too corny. The audience should already get the impression that Dan and Laurie's sudden appearance in full costume (with Owl Ship in tow) is an almost miraculous occurrence. Given the way the scene is shot, coupled with the blaring music, a line like that just bludgeons you over the head with the idea that 'Wow! It's almost like these guys are messiahs or saviours in the eyes of those people! Who'da thunk it?'

Condescending. Twee. Telling, not showing. Unbelievably clunky. Awful, awful, awful!

If the line absolutely had to be included in the film, have it said in the background amongst the panicking tenants (yet still audible) and keep the camera focused on the actual rescue. Don't ruin the momentum of the sequence by suddenly lowering the volume of the background music and focusing on this child and her mother! Hell, it almost implies that the only way the audience can feel for these people is if we get a close up of a cute and oblivious child saying something cute and oblivious! So cheap! So, so...insulting.

Got a bit carried away, there, but this is just how it comes across to me.

Just had a flick through the novel, and yes, the line is indeed in there. But the line works, or is at the very least tolerable because, like I said before, it is just background chatter and does not divert the reader's entire focus. It's just one speech bubble in single small cell. Doesn't take prominence in either the cell or the entire scene because there's so much going on and the pace is so fast.

Anyway, I've probably said enough.

I too HATED that line.

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Mexicano Al Grito De Guerra

why? they specifically stood it out in the comic. worked there, worked here too.

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Yeah, I imagine the irony of the scene was lost on most of the audience without it...

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That line sucked. They put the scene on pause, make a joke, and then continue the scene. In the book, the line is thrown in amongst other dialogue, rather than standing out.

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"Computer unnecessary."

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Spot on. Hell, the whole idea of the rescue being an example of Rorschach's philosophy in action never even occurred to me!

I'm usually opposed to the idea of someone doing a "fan edit" of their favorite film. I think that in most cases it is immature wish fulfillment and a disrespectful affront to the filmmaker. I love the Director’s Cut of Watchmen but I feel that the Ultimate Cut is hurt by the awkward intrusion of the Black Freighter storyline. I was curious as to how the UC would play if I exercised the animated Black Freighter sequences from the narrative but kept the “Bernies” storyline intact. So with that initiative I decided to make my own personal “Preferred Edition” of Watchmen. I began by ripping my personal copy of the Ultimate Cut Blu-ray disc to my hard drive. I then carefully edited the film using Adobe Premier Pro. I ensured that the each scene flowed naturally into the next by overlapping the sound of certain segments by a second or so as needed. In some cases it was also necessary to add a few seconds of black video to cover up the head or tail of an animated sequence. I used cross dissolves and fades when appropriate to smooth out the transitions. I outputted the film as a h.264 HD/Dolby 5.1 mp4 file which delivered outstanding audio/visual results.
As I watched this “Preferred Edition” I was amazed at how much more I became emotionally engaged in the story. I think that the Theatrical and to some extent the DC of Watchmen may have failed to connect with a lot of people because the film does not have a protagonist that the audience can relate to on a real-world level. The Bernie sequences are essential as they provide a connection between the audience and the disassociated “heroes”. The “Bernies” give us a literal “man-on-the-street” view of the Watchmen universe and as a result we become more of an active participant in the story. The inclusion of the Black Freighter animated sequences in the UC was an interesting experiment but I feel that they are best suited as a supplement to the print version of Watchmen. Their elimination from the narrative allows the to story move along at a improved pace. They will not be missed. This PE cut of Watchmen has turned out to be my favorite version of the film and I thank Zac Snyder and his crew for doing such a wonderful job in bringing the world of Watchmen to life.
I have not nor will I ever distribute this version of Watchmen. I made it for my own personal enjoyment and would never violate the copyright laws by distributing someone else's intellectual property.

I'm glad to hear that the Ultimate Cut is your favorite.

Edit: So which is your preferred actual version of the film anyway?

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."

There is nothing in TBF to imply that Rorschach was the "good". In fact reading some the reviews of the Ultimate Cut, some reviewers thought TBF was referring to Rorschach, and made no mention of Veidt. The ambiguity that the captain is Veidt is also lost in the book as well. There is a line in the book, where he clearly mention he was dreaming of sailing toward a ship with black sails. In the movie, it already becomes very clear that Rorschach is insane.

Here is where I think most of the problem lies: In this forum, most people here are quite educated about Watchmen, it's themes,etc. When we see the movie, we notice it's subtleties. But for most of the people going to see the movie first, most of the subtlety is lost, even on repeated viewings. I have a very intelligent friend, who has read tons of literature, who saw the movie, and even he couldn't understand the main point the movie was making, even after his second viewing. There are just so many ideas, and so many layers of satire and commentary, that as a stand-alone movie it is just too subtle for its own good. TBF does a good job, of keeping the themes at the forefront of the viewers' minds.

I'm not saying the movie can't be enjoyed without a good understand of its themes, but the point the movie is making should be comprehensible to someone who hasn't read the book, at least after multiple-viewings.

I agree that the DC is the most polished version of the film, however the UC works better as a stand-alone film.

Yeah, I was really disappointed with Snyder's commentary and only sat through half of it before switching it off.

He talks obsessively about the sets and locations, going on for ages about the geography of the backlot and which sets doubled for others and which walls were removable. It's interesting for about 2 - 3 minutes, but excruciating at the hour and a half mark.

He also has a habit of calling out details that are completely obvious at times (i.e: "There's a Gunga Diner blimp in the background" as an enormous blimp fills half the screen.), as well as being fixated on the use of CG ("That photo is CG" is a phrase he uses a lot.)

As ROR-SHACK pointed out, his worst crime is glossing over directorial choices by saying "I thought it'd be cool." There's a lot more to the film than just being "cool" and I found it intensely frustrating that such detail wasn't elaborated on in favour of more talk about which set was where. It makes Snyder sound like a lunkhead who made an incredibly intricate and deep film entirely by accident, which I know is not the case.

I'm up to Rorschach's interrogation scene and so far he's said little to nothing about:
- The tortured history/legacy of the production (admittedly covered elsewhere)
- The casting of the film
- How the actors got into their characters / filming anecdotes
- Any problems/obstacles faced during production
- The look of the film, specifically referencing Taxi Driver or Blade Runner
- The politics of the film and it's characters (he does talk briefly about this, but again it's all surface)

So far it just sounds like they included the Set Designer's commentary by accident.

Disappointing. I can only hope that the second half is completely different, but I don't like my chances.

I never got through all of Snyder's commentary. Tell me if he does a complete 180.

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"The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

"There's a cello in your house now."

Snyder's commentary was bad, and Gibbons' was worse. But if they were both together, I bet it would have been interesting. Solo-commentaries rarely work well.

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"Computer unnecessary."

I didn't bother watching Snyder's commentary because I already watched Maximum Movie Mode, and I figure what else could he possibly say?

I tried Gibbons, but didn't get very far. Not necessarily out of boredom, I just felt like turning it off.

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One superhero blows up New York, another one kills women and children, and the last one just flashes everybody.
SUPERHEROES ARE ASSHOLES! ~ Chester A. Bum