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Apologies if this has been raised before recently. I am new and having difficulties running Searches that tell me if old topics have been played out.

I am struck upon reflection at how little the novel tells us about Captain Metropolis -- a minor character to be sure, but one whose career spanned decades. He must have had many interesting cases -- or just how DID he spend his time? [Insert bright blue Hooded Justice gags here.] Too bad even "Under the Hood" doesn't talk much about him, in the excerpts we're shown (and what we wouldn't all give for a complete "Under the Hood" book! Alan Moore, will you ever want to revisist your most acclaimed work and fill in the blanks?)

One also wonders what his interactions were with the latter generation, Nite Owl II, Rorscach, etc. Dan Dreiberg doesn't seek him out for company or inspiration as he does Hollis Mason. The Captain may have been a lonely man. What does he feel about Hooded Justice's disappearance? We don't know. Did he ever try to get to the bottom of that?

Finally, are there really those who think that CM and HJ faked their deaths and are still alive and togethwr in 1985? I read a rumor about that -- and evidently it's all based on two characters in a panel foreground in the restaurant scene in Chapter I who resemble older versions of the two Minutemen in their civilian personas.

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Ego Ipse Custodes Custudio

That last bit is not possible - Nelson Gardner, aka Captain Metropolis was decapitated in a car accident in the 60s.

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Decapitated? Hmmm....that could really make a positive id difficult.

Anything's possible.



Exactly.

Here's a pic:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/watchmen/images/7/7e/Restaurant_2.png

They look exactly like their superhero counterparts, and take a look at their bowties. Remind you of anything?

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Not only do they look like an elder versions of the characters, but they're also holding hands and in the "Motion Comic", they snuggle. Awww!



It is possible that they "faked" their deaths. The body of "Rolf Muller" was in extremely bad shape, so making a "positive" ID was difficult; I'm sure they based it more on the body's SIZE than face, or lack of face there of. Same goes with Nelly's decapitation, as it's rather difficult to ID him when his head is smashed in and cut off from the body. Of course, we don't know if this happened while he was in costume....or out of costume. The details are purposely vague. It could be that they both died as they did. Or that they both "faked" it...and Hollis helped.

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Geez, I've NEVER noticed those two characters before, but the next time I read it I will

and look above the elson G. in this pic, the beehive? remind anyone of the dread Twilight Lady?

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@RealSlimCAvery

For that to be true you would have to ignore the implication that Blake killed Hooded Justice.

The woman in the extreme foreground has interesting eye make up. A possible reference to the Eye of Horus?

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"Heard them Walthers like to jump some" "As will you, with one in your elbow."

but because it is merely implied, you don't have to believe it as truth, and that picture is pretty convincing

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@RealSlimCAvery

I disagree. You see two retired Minutemen faking their deaths, I just see two old gay lovers. In fact, if they were faking their deaths, then why would they be out in public in the middle of NYC? Wouldn't they be underground or in an isolated mountain cabin or something?

I just don't see enough evidence to contradict Rorschach's report that Lt. Gardner was decapitated. A lot of Hooded Justice's fate remains a mystery, and I think that's how it's meant to be.

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This is truly a madhouse. And I'm the lunatic running it. I've spent three years wondering if I should be proud or ashamed.

To quote Hollis Mason:


That aside, it's interesting how much debate a single panel can spark. Perhaps it's just the eternal hope that these two men who have been through so much shit in life can finally come to a peaceful place in their later years.

It is kind of nifty how much their bowties look like masks...

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"Ah, walking into a field of flowers. Nothing says 'I'm going to rip your f*cking head off' like walking into a field of flowers!"--MadWorld

So is it possible that Rafael's is a hideout for masks?

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What a fluke. I just came across this topic elsewhere online today too (and I came here just now to see if this had been discussed yet). I never made any connection between the two guys in Rafael's. I don't see a definitive answer, but the possibilities are very interesting.

The bowties could be a hint, as might the colour of the vest of the man on the right (matching Cpt. M's costume).
Come to think about it, the guy on the right does kinda resemble Nelson's "aww geez" look at the Crimebuster's meeting. It's only implied that Rolf Müller was HJ, and whether or not that's really his body, or Nelson's, that were found seems kind of up in the air.

I know it's a stretch, but how can you convincingly fake two deaths if you leave any doubt that they're really dead? How could they have possibly set this up? Whose bodies were they, then? Could it be that HJ faked his death, disappeared, and then later made his presence known only to Nelson later before faking his death too? If Blake did indeed kill Müller, did he have the wrong guy?

One thing that has me leaning towards the cover-up theory is that I wouldn't put it past Moore & Gibbons to set up this panel in Rafael's as foreshadowing Dan & Laurie's coda at the end of the book. Both parties assume new identities and go into hiding. If so, here they are all together in the same panel, seemingly oblivious.

Maybe we can get DoomsdayClock to ask Mr. Gibbons sometime.

(edit:) Looks like Midnighter posted some info in a similar thread, and Gibbons has already spoken:

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"HEY, man, I ain't buyin' THIS! Ripoff story ain't go no ENDIN'!"

Ah, good, glad to see that someone else ran across this dave Gibbons remark and posted it here. After beginning this discussion, I also spotted that post and link while catching up in another topic (possibly the long "Easter Eggs" thread), and then wanted to come back here with an update. So the official word is that nope, it's not supposed to be them, but it's recognized that the coincidence/serendippity factor is there! Another example of what makes the book so great. Even the creators are sometimes surprised at how multi-layered it is and what readers find!

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Ego Ipse Custodes Custudio

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I am curious to know what made you think Hollis would help them go into hiding?

I always pictured Hollis as being a little too old fashioned and traditional when it came to the topic of romantic relationships to be the type to support, at least in a practical way, their relationship. I’m not sure Hollis would have gotten involved, but maybe I missed something. Can you elaborate?




That’s an interesting point! I kind of like the implications of Blake killing the wrong guy on his own personal vigilantly mission….it says some interesting things about Blake and vigilantes and the warping of justice.

Really,on the whole HJ and CM being alive thing,obviously wasn't supposed to there(unless Gibbons was actually such a genius that he could sneak things past himself,in which case he is most certainly a ninja),but at some point, it's really sort of irrelevant what the actual intent was. Applying your own readings to a work is a very creative and fun thing to do.
Gibbons actually said,not in so many words,but basically that it's such a nice idea,he's tempted not to deny it. Get out of that what you will.

But, let's get back to the issue at hand here,as I think "The Panel" probably warrants it's own thread. I think the reason we don't get to know much about Cap is to drive home the point that he's kind of unappreciated,despite the fact he founded the group, he is barely ever paid attention too, and was likely made fun of. He's the Aquaman or the Ringo Starr of the group.

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"Of course. Must protect Veidt's new utopia. One more body amongst foundations makes little difference. Well? What are you waiting for? Do it."

funny too, He is the only one trying to start another team in 1966 but then in 1974 he dies, and misse out in the fun of The Pre-Keene Riots in 1977. Like The Comedian would say "Nelly is a bad joke".

So what if Dave Gibbons denied is is nelly and h.j?

They denied alot of things....


Such as the 'I DID IT' panel, the painting on the wall, the two swords are placed directly behind veidts hands, like they're impaling them. You know, kinda like christ?

They deny is was deliberate but i dont really believe them...

This could very much be Nelly and h.j

And that's your privilege. Just don't expect too many others to join you without harder evidence.

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This is truly a madhouse. And I'm the lunatic running it. I've spent three years wondering if I should be proud or ashamed.

There are things that emerge unconsciously, as result of one's training and interests, etc. that sometimes the creator(s) doesn't realize or realize at first. It's just the nature of art- as is a reader projecting into the work in some way. And then you have post-canon revelations concerning real-world elements in a piece of fiction. I mean, I highly doubt Moore and Gibbons knew Kitty Genovese was a lesbian.