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 Post subject: Re: Before Watchmen
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:20 pm 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Dog Carcass wrote:
feliciano182 wrote:
I'm going to say it right now...I will torrent the living shit out of those comics, not a single cent of mine will go into the pockets of uncreative, greedy fucks leeching off talent they could never surpass.


A little extreme


Alan Moore said it himself man, if they had actual ideas, they would work on them, instead of sucking off whatever life there is out of a franchise that ended a long time ago.


And this point is eloquently answered in the interviews. The hypocrisy of this statement coming from a man happy to mash-up other great writer's characters into the steampunk-porn of Extraordinary Gentlemen... Mr. Moore is just baiting you with that comment, and making his slavish disciples look a little foolish in the process. He knowingly did exactly what he is describing with much-loved Victorian properties who's copyrights had expired.

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 Post subject: Re: Before Watchmen
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:22 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
And this point is eloquently answered in the interviews. The hypocrisy of this statement coming from a man happy to mash-up other great writer's characters into the steampunk-porn of Extraordinary Gentlemen... Mr. Moore is just baiting you with that comment, and making his slavish disciples look a little foolish in the process. He knowingly did exactly what he is describing with much-loved Victorian properties who's copyrights had expired.


The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen = Steampunk-porn ?

Talk about being absolutely full of crap.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:25 am 
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WJK wrote:
I don't want a pre-snap Rorschach, we already got that in the gn, no need to expand further upon it.

We got a pre-snap Walter and very little pre-snap Rorschach.

It's post-snap Rorschach we don't need to see expanded upon much further.

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 Post subject: Re: Before Watchmen
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:44 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
Mister Pain wrote:
And this point is eloquently answered in the interviews. The hypocrisy of this statement coming from a man happy to mash-up other great writer's characters into the steampunk-porn of Extraordinary Gentlemen... Mr. Moore is just baiting you with that comment, and making his slavish disciples look a little foolish in the process. He knowingly did exactly what he is describing with much-loved Victorian properties who's copyrights had expired.


The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen = Steampunk-porn ?

Talk about being absolutely full of crap.


Steampunk infested with the reanimated cadavers of long-dead franchises? Having a little fun with that phrase, perhaps, but the point I am making is sound.

Do you seriously think Moore sees himself above the behaviour he paints in such curly prose as quoted by you?
The characters he has been trading on for years, from the Invisible Man to Swamp Thing, were not created by him, and were 'dead' franchises in themselves. He is tickling his own nose, and probably having a giggle at the 'fans' who defend this bit of play as if it were the word of the prophet at the same time.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:47 am 
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Honestly, I'm thoroughly impressed with how this is being handled. Based strictly on the talent being assembled and the care that's being taken (according to JMS), it's clear that this isn't a step that DC is taking lightly. I really do think that they're trying to do this in a careful and methodical way that will deliver new content in a way that squares with existing canon and appeases the die-hard fans. I'd also add that we the fans have every right to consider the comics apocryphal if we so choose.

HOWEVER, I worry about the direction "Before Watchmen" should take if it becomes a long-term project. The writers and editors must always be aware that they only have a five-decade window to work within, and any gaps in that timeline are going to get shorter and shorter as more issues come out. If DC has any present or future plans to continue playing in this sandbox after this initial "Before Watchmen" batch, some very drastic measures will have to be taken.

In regards to Grandmaster Moore, my impression of him is that -- like many geniuses -- he has very little respect or concern for anything that goes on outside his own head. He has the artistic brilliance to achieve greatness, but doesn't have the tact or the business sense to cope with what greatness brings, especially in this corporate-run age.

Moore wanted his creations to stay untampered with. In hindsight, I think that was always going to be a pipe dream. Let's be honest with ourselves: As much as we loved the original graphic novel, as much as we respected Moore's wishes, and as much as we all prayed that DC would just leave well enough alone, I think we all knew deep down that this day was coming. It was just too good to last.

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 Post subject: Re: Before Watchmen
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:16 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
Steampunk infested with the reanimated cadavers of long-dead franchises? Having a little fun with that phrase, perhaps, but the point I am making is sound.


I'm sorry, did Alan Moore cheat Haggard, Burroughs, Stoker and others out of their own creations ? Did he try to out-maneuver having to get their consent for more than twenty years ? Did he not work with material that was subject to PUBLIC DOMAIN ?

This isn't just about somebody else handling a property that shouldn't be handled by anyone else on what creativity is concerned, this is about new material that is tainted, this is something that shouldn't happen, but it will because, as in all bullshit-filled industries, assholes have the final word.

Mister Pain wrote:
Do you seriously think Moore sees himself above the behaviour he paints in such curly prose as quoted by you?


He doesn't see himself as that, he actually is, he has earned the fucking right to worship a goddamn snake statue, to say he retires to be an actual wizard, to have the most unkept facial hair in public, and still come off as awesome.

This is the man who revolutionized comic books practically on his own, and now, when he is speaking up and calling out DC on their lack of creativity, fans don't give a shit and call him a "crazy old man" as soon as DC dangles carrots called Darwyn Cooke, Brian Azzarello and Andy Kubert.

I'm sorry man, but when he says DC has done nothing but what he did for them, he is right.

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Last edited by feliciano182 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:26 am 
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Well, this is comics. The publisher's own the characters.

H.G. Wells and Bram Stoker didn't write comics, and they didn't sign silly contracts with corporations.

Regardless of how entertaining or thought provoking it was (LOEG), Moore took high art and used it for comics (ok, so maybe Wells was more low-art, like Stephen King).
He took Charlton characters and made them into something awesome for D.C.
That was the job, right?

Not saying I'm full of love for these Before Watchmen things. But you know... it's comics. That's what happens. Characters are reinterpreted, timelines explored, and the shelves get restocked every month.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:36 am 
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Believe me, feli, there's no way I'd dispute the creative bankruptcy of DC Comics. I don't think there's a soul among us who doesn't recognize this as a transparent attempt at milking one of the last sacred cows in comic history.

That said, I think it's still early enough that we can hope for something to come out of this that's tolerable to a degree. Something that cashes in on the franchise in a way that's respectful to the canon, carefully made, and at least slightly enjoyable for fans. You know, like the film was.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:43 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
Believe me, feli, there's no way I'd dispute the creative bankruptcy of DC Comics. I don't think there's a soul among us who doesn't recognize this as a transparent attempt at milking one of the last sacred cows in comic history.


As the gentleman that you are Curi, I will have to politely disagree with you.

From what I've seen lately, some folk were too damn quick to forget once they got baited with their favorite artists and writers.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:49 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
He took Charlton characters and made them into something awesome for D.C.
That was the job, right?


This is actually an interesting angle to ponder, if not for DC changing their minds... Watchmen wouldn't have even featured Moore's creations, they were supposed to be characters other people created and DC had aquired the rights to... so in a sense Alan Moore was pretty close to doing the exact same thing that Cooke and his Crew are doing now, taking established properties and creating a brand new story with the characters and worlds other people created.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:53 am 
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Mister Pain wrote:
(ok, so maybe Wells was more low-art, like Stephen King).

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:14 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
WJK wrote:
I don't want a pre-snap Rorschach, we already got that in the gn, no need to expand further upon it.

We got a pre-snap Walter and very little pre-snap Rorschach.

It's post-snap Rorschach we don't need to see expanded upon much further.

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am 
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Godziller66 wrote:
WJK wrote:
I don't want a pre-snap Rorschach, we already got that in the gn, no need to expand further upon it.

We got a pre-snap Walter and very little pre-snap Rorschach.

It's post-snap Rorschach we don't need to see expanded upon much further.


the Rorschach mini is only 4 issues, just enough to flesh it out, but not so much that they will be retreading old ground.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:41 pm 
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AvatarIII wrote:
the Rorschach mini is only 4 issues, just enough to flesh it out, but not so much that they will be retreading old ground.


I didn't know they had varying "length", got a link ?

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 Post subject: Re: Before Watchmen
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:44 pm 
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AYBGerrardo wrote:
The big announcement is here, so time for a new thread...

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2012/02/01 ... %E2%80%9D/

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This summer, DC Entertainment will publish all-new stories expanding on the acclaimed WATCHMEN universe. As highly anticipated as they are controversial, the seven inter-connected prequel mini-series will build on the foundation of the original WATCHMEN, the bestselling graphic novel of all time. BEFORE WATCHMEN will be the collective banner for all seven titles, from DC Comics.

“It’s our responsibility as publishers to find new ways to keep all of our characters relevant,” said DC Entertainment Co-Publishers Dan DiDio and Jim Lee. “After twenty five years, the Watchmen are classic characters whose time has come for new stories to be told. We sought out the best writers and artists in the industry to build on the complex mythology of the original.”

Stepping up to the challenge is a group of the comic book industry’s most iconoclastic writers and artists – including Brian Azzarello (100 BULLETS), Lee Bermejo (JOKER), Amanda Conner (POWER GIRL), Darwyn Cooke (JUSTICE LEAGUE: NEW FRONTIER), John Higgins (WATCHMEN), Adam Hughes (CATWOMAN), J.G. Jones (FINAL CRISIS), Andy Kubert (FLASHPOINT), Joe Kubert (SGT. ROCK), Jae Lee (BATMAN: JEKYLL AND HYDE), J. Michael Straczynski (SUPERMAN: EARTH ONE) and Len Wein (SWAMP THING).

BEFORE WATCHMEN includes:

RORSCHACH (4 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: Lee Bermejo

MINUTEMEN (6 issues) – Writer/Artist: Darwyn Cooke

COMEDIAN (6 issues) – Writer: Brian Azzarello. Artist: J.G. Jones

DR. MANHATTAN (4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artist: Adam Hughes

NITE OWL (4 issues) – Writer: J. Michael Straczynski. Artists: Andy and Joe Kubert

OZYMANDIAS (6 issues) – Writer: Len Wein. Artist: Jae Lee

SILK SPECTRE (4 issues) – Writer: Darwyn Cooke. Artist: Amanda Conner

Each week, a new issue will be released, and will feature a two-page back-up story called CURSE OF THE CRIMSON CORSAIR, written by original series editor Len Wein and with art by original series colorist John Higgins. There will also be a single issue, BEFORE WATCHMEN: EPILOGUE, featuring the work of various writers and artists, and a CRIMSON CORSAIR story by Wein and Higgins.

“The original series of WATCHMEN is the complete story that Alan Moore and I wanted to tell. However, I appreciate DC’s reasons for this initiative and the wish of the artists and writers involved to pay tribute to our work. May these new additions have the success they desire,” said Dave Gibbons, WATCHMEN co-creator and original series artist.

“Comic books are perhaps the largest and longest running form of collaborative fiction,” said DiDio and Lee. “Collaborative storytelling is what keeps these fictional universes current and relevant.”


http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2012 ... hh1223.jpg

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it was tying it into the rape-revenge stories and making light of a verys erious sub-genre that kind of offended me.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:28 am 
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fans don't give a shit and call him a "crazy old man" as soon as DC dangles carrots called Darwyn Cooke, Brian Azzarello and Andy Kubert.


I'm sorry, but I'm not going to blindly hate these prequels simply because Moore got screwed over 20+ years ago.

I'm taking the wait-and-see approach to this, rather than complain and use hyperbolic to explain how this will "ruin" Watchmen (an ironic stance to take on this forum).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:42 am 
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SkaOreo wrote:
I'm taking the wait-and-see approach to this, rather than complain and use hyperbolic to explain how this will "ruin" Watchmen (an ironic stance to take on this forum).


I always remember how Star Wars WAS ruined, as a franchise it was degraded beyond recognition, and it still continues.

Do I believe these prequels will do the same to Watchmen ? Not really, certainly not with the amount of talented people involved.

Unless they get REALLY "creative" and decide to make a sequel, I think at that moment I'd be really interested in what the supporters have to say about that !

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:18 am 
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feliciano182 wrote:
SkaOreo wrote:
I'm taking the wait-and-see approach to this, rather than complain and use hyperbolic to explain how this will "ruin" Watchmen (an ironic stance to take on this forum).


I always remember how Star Wars WAS ruined, as a franchise it was degraded beyond recognition, and it still continues.

Do I believe these prequels will do the same to Watchmen ? Not really, certainly not with the amount of talented people involved.

Unless they get REALLY "creative" and decide to make a sequel, I think at that moment I'd be really interested in what the supporters have to say about that !


That analogy only works if Moore went through the GN and started changing panels and dialogue

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:19 am 
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In Star Wars, in Watchmen, in Before Watchmen, and in every other work of fiction, remember these immortal words of Neil Gaiman:

"Never trust the storyteller. Only trust the story."

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:32 am 
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Curiosity Inc. wrote:
In Star Wars, in Watchmen, in Before Watchmen, and in every other work of fiction, remember these immortal words of Neil Gaiman:

"Never trust the storyteller. Only trust the story."


Kinda works. A crap storyteller can ruin a perfectly good story. Gaiman's done it himself (half the Fragile Things collection is embarrassingly sub-Bradbury). We all have our off days :)

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